Posts by Sea Breeze

27

What are some of the more exceptional self-authenticating claims made by Jehovah’s Witnesses?

by Vanderhoven7 in

let's start the ball rolling with two connected claims.. the religion of jehovah’s witnesses is the one true religion.

all other religions are satanic, including all the churches of christendom..

Sea Breeze

JW's are the only church who claim they were specifically named in scripture: THE Faithful and Discreet Salve.

4

JWs and the Lord's Prayer

by punkofnice in

how often do you hear the lord's prayer at the meetings or in jw homes?.

i don't know if they revised their stance with the new leaders in america, but i don't recall it having much weight when i were a wee'un.. i think the nwt said, 'pray then, this way....'.

so, jesus gave instructions on how to pray, as in actual words to say.......so the jws don't?

They stop when they get to the part that says "let your kingdom come". Then they start berating Christians for not recognizing the Watchtower as the physical manifestation of the kingdom of God on earth.

JW's are apalled that others do not recognize the "clear evidence" that Jesus has appointed them as rulers over all the earth in his stead. Their message is: now you have to do business with us, not Jesus if you want life..... just exactly as Jesus predicted.

Many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he!’ and they will lead many astray. - Mark 13: 6

10

The Apostles Creed vs. Watchtower

by Sea Breeze in

the apostles creed could be recited in less than a minute in latin.

it was like an ancient youtube video clip: christianity in less than a minute.

it is very ancient, reaching back to the 200's.

Sea Breeze

The Apostles Creed could be recited in less than a minute in Latin. It was like an ancient YouTube video clip: Christianity in less than a minute. It is very ancient, reaching back to the 200's. But, Watchtower would have a problem with most of it.

1. I believe in God the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.

Right off the bat, there is a problem. Wt would never use the phrase God the father

2. I believe in Jesus Christ his only Son, our Lord.

Wt. is uneasy about referring to Jesus as "our Lord".

3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.

This one OK

4. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.

Wt doesn't like the word "crucified" or cross

5. He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again.

Wt. would never accept that Jesus went to hell after he died.

6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.

Wt believes only a spirit creature who looks like Jesus went to heaven - Michael the Archangel

7. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

Wt. teaches that the dead atone for themselves and will not be judged for their sins.

8. I believe in the Holy Spirit,

Wt. believes the Holy Spirit is like electricity

9. the holy catholic (universal) Church, the communion of saints,

Wt. would never accept the concept of a universal body of believers known only to Christ.

10. the forgiveness of sins,

Wt. teaches that since 1935 new believers are not justified (forgiveness of sins)

11. the resurrection of the body,

Wt. teaches that people are not resurrected in their body, but are recreated as spirits.

12. and the life everlasting.

Wt teaches "life everlasting" is postponed until after you have been good for 1000 years if you wre lucky enough to survive Armageddon.

Amen.

Wt is at odds with the Apostles Creed, which was a pity statement of faith regarding what it meant to be a Christian.

27

Examples of Watchtower flawed interpretation of Bible passages?

by Vanderhoven7 in

asking jehovah’s witnesses to interpret specific passages is a great way to demonstrate their interpretive abuse.

got any clear examples?.

Sea Breeze

Could the "slave" be illustrative of a group? Perhaps, but that does not mean it's them.

@Journeyman

In the King James Version, which is what Witchtower used for over 75 years, the indefinte article was used - "Who really is a faithful and wise servant"?

It was a general rhetorical question. To try and make it sound specific, the WT zeroed in on the next sentence what contained the phrase "that servant". Then, they would pull out some mumbo jumbo about how the facts show that Charles Rusell is "THAT SERVANT". (repeat over and over)

Later when they printed their own bible, and after Rusell died, they added the definite article "the" to the question to make it appear specific.

"Who really is the faithful and discrete slave". They then pull the same gimmick and say something like all available evidence points the the governing body of JW's as the composite faithful and discreed slave , yada, yada, yada.

Lots of uneducated, unsaved people fall for these word scams.

A simple question meant for self introspection for believers, was turned into a wild goose chase after a false christ. People are very easily deceived.

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince someone they have been fooled" - Mark Twain

1

Why Did God Become Man?

by Sea Breeze in

jw
friends

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy2ptaan9pc&ab_channel=theslothmonkey.

.

do you think the explanation by paul harvey is plausible?.

Sea Breeze

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gY2pTAAn9pc&ab_channel=theslothmonkey

Do you think the explanation by Paul Harvey is plausible?

27

Examples of Watchtower flawed interpretation of Bible passages?

by Vanderhoven7 in

asking jehovah’s witnesses to interpret specific passages is a great way to demonstrate their interpretive abuse.

got any clear examples?.

Sea Breeze

Watchtower likes to play games by changing definitions of words and phrases. They highlight something and repeat it over and over until it takes on an altered meaning. and a life of its own. This is how they created a false Christ figure in Russell; by putting a spin on a simple phrase: "THAT SERVANT".

The WT used the KJV until they replaced it with their own bible in the 1960's.

Mt. 24: 45-47 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

THE MAKING OF A FALSE CHRIST FIGURE:

“The Lord Jesus, in his great prophetic statement in Matthew 24:45-47, made known the fact that at the end of the age he would be present and would have a special servant whom he would “make ruler over all his house to give meat in due season to the household.” For many years Christian people of all denominations have been looking for the manifestation of that promised servant. For several years some have recognized, and now many more are recognizing, that Pastor Russell is that servant.” -The Watchtower November 1, 1917 page 319.

“The view generally held, that Pastor Russell himself was the “faithful and wise servant” of Matthew 24:45-47, created considerable difficulty for some years. The insistence that Russell had been “that servant” led many to regard Russell in what amounted actually to creature worship. They believed that all the truth God had seen fit to reveal to his people had been revealed to Russell, and now nothing more could be brought forth because “that servant” was dead.” -Jehovah’s Witnesses in the Divine Purpose page 69.

“There was some resistance from those who were not progressive and who did not have a vision of the work that lay ahead. Some insisted on living in the past, in the time of Pastor Russell, when the brothers in general had viewed him as the sole channel of Scriptural enlightenment. It was the published and accepted thought down till 1927 that he was “that servant” of Matthew 24:45.” -Jehovah’s Witnesses in the Divine Purpose page 95.

“Jesus clearly indicated that during his second presence he would have amongst the church a faithful and wise servant, through whom he would give to the household of faith meat in due season. The evidence is overwhelming concerning the Lord’s second presence, the time of the harvest, and that the office of “that servant” has been filled by Brother Russell. This is not man worship by any means. It matters not who Charles T. Russell was-whether he was a doctor, a hod-carrier or a seller of shirts. St. Peter was a fisherman: St. Paul a lawyer. But these matters are immaterial. above all, these men were the chosen vessels of the Lord.

Regardless of his earthly avocation, above all, Brother Russell was the Lord’s servant. Then to repudiate him and his work is equivalent to a repudiation of the Lord, upon the principle heretofore announced. -The Watchtower May 1, 1922 page 132.

"And just like that, Jesus was gone".

Forrest Gump (character) - Wikiwand

21

Is Jesus a Created Being? Debate with a Pastor

by raymond frantz in

https://youtu.be/ro6q_osgkns?si=hyxualluhruwvjnb.

—colossians 1:15 from the nwt says it plain as day: “he is the image of the invisible god, the firstborn of all creation.” that’s not vague; it’s got a punch.

“firstborn” and “creation” sit side by side, and in greek, that second word is “ktisis,” which means the physical stuff—trees, stars, you name it.

Sea Breeze

Not sure of your point Raimundo.

But, Jesus was not begotten in eternity past as a creation called The Son. He was begotten when he was made flesh:

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. - John 1

So what does begotten (monogenes) mean? According to the Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG, 3rd Edition), monogenes has two primary definitions. The first definition is "pertaining to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship."

Jesus is unique, one of a kind; being both fully man and begotten by God sharing his essence - thus fully God.

21

Is Jesus a Created Being? Debate with a Pastor

by raymond frantz in

https://youtu.be/ro6q_osgkns?si=hyxualluhruwvjnb.

—colossians 1:15 from the nwt says it plain as day: “he is the image of the invisible god, the firstborn of all creation.” that’s not vague; it’s got a punch.

“firstborn” and “creation” sit side by side, and in greek, that second word is “ktisis,” which means the physical stuff—trees, stars, you name it.

Sea Breeze

@Halcon -

If his heart is right, no. The evidence of that is if that person continues to grow by the leadings of the Holy Spirit. But can a person believe Jesus is the Son of God and still have a heart "not right before God"? That's the question here.That would be a tragedy I'm sure you would agree.

Acts 8

13 Simon [Magnus] himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw....

18 When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money 19 and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

20 Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God.

Some people come to Jesus with weird motives; motives that are something other than complete surrender to Jesus as the highest authority, as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. If they belong to Christ, the Holy Spirit will get them on track in due time. If not, they will continue to embrace heresies, looking for loopholes, escape clauses, and pursuing personal recognition of one sort or another.

Some very early church fathers stated that Simon Magnus went on to found Gnosticism, a system of heretical, anti-christian thought that continues to this day.

But hey, he believed Jesus was the Son of God.

21

Is Jesus a Created Being? Debate with a Pastor

by raymond frantz in

https://youtu.be/ro6q_osgkns?si=hyxualluhruwvjnb.

—colossians 1:15 from the nwt says it plain as day: “he is the image of the invisible god, the firstborn of all creation.” that’s not vague; it’s got a punch.

“firstborn” and “creation” sit side by side, and in greek, that second word is “ktisis,” which means the physical stuff—trees, stars, you name it.

Sea Breeze

Seabreeze I believe you are well intentioned. However, there's nothing in the scriptures that
state that if we reject the tripartite nature of man it means we lose salvation.

@Halcon

Your statement assumes that a person already has salvation, and might lose it. Aside from children who are unable to comprehend the word of God, no one starts out saved.

Since we are saved by grace through faith, shouldn't we be sure we have faith in the right Jesus to forgive sins? What if a person has faith in the wrong Jesus? Like a Jesus the Mormons invented? Or, the angelic Jesus Russell invented? Or, maybe a person has faith in a church or their good works. Will that save a person? At what point does "faith" deviate far enough from the biblical Jesus that he states on Judgment Day, " I never knew you"?

The scriptural description of man having three parts, each with personhood (soul, body & spirit) allows a framework for Jesus to be who he claimed to be : fully man & fully God.... both created and uncreated.

JW's would never think of bowing down to Jesus and asking him to save them. For them, that would be creature worship because they think he is an angel. They also conviently believe that there is not any kind of personhood assigned to our souls or spirits. They believe that when they die, they atone for their own sins and if they get it wrong and are not resurrected, no big deal. This is I suspect the real object of faith for many.

The bible consistently uses pronouns and attributes personhood to the spirit, body and soul of a man. If we choose not to believe God, on this issue, what else will we not believe God about? Do we just forget about how Jesus told Nicodemas three times that a person must be born again? Do we just brush off the offer for forgiveness of sins in the new covenant in Mt. 16; 27-28 BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD US it isn't meant for you?

In other words, can a person be saved by a faith that listens to another voice other than God, with an object of faith other than who Jesus claimed to be? So, it is all related.

21

Is Jesus a Created Being? Debate with a Pastor

by raymond frantz in

https://youtu.be/ro6q_osgkns?si=hyxualluhruwvjnb.

—colossians 1:15 from the nwt says it plain as day: “he is the image of the invisible god, the firstborn of all creation.” that’s not vague; it’s got a punch.

“firstborn” and “creation” sit side by side, and in greek, that second word is “ktisis,” which means the physical stuff—trees, stars, you name it.

Sea Breeze

The word "firstborn" (Greek word "prototokos") signifies priority. In the culture of the Ancient Near East, the firstborn was not necessarily the oldest child. Firstborn referred not to birth order but to rank. The firstborn possessed the inheritance and leadership.

Therefore, the phrase expresses Christ’s sovereignty over creation. After Jesus resurrected himself from the dead, God gave Him authority over the Earth (Matthew 28:18). Jesus created the world, saved the world, and rules the world. He is the self-existent, acknowledged Head of creation.

The phrase recognizes Him as the Messiah: "I will make Him [Christ] My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth" (Psalm 89:27).

Six times the Lord Jesus is declared to be the firstborn of God:

(see Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:15, 18; Hebrews 1:6; 12:23; Revelation 1:5). These passages declare the preexistence, the sovereignty, and the redemption that Christ offers.

Thus, the phrase "firstborn of all creation" proclaims Christ’s preeminence.

Right after the "firstborn" usage, scripture says this: Col. 1: 18b-19 - that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell.

PRE-EM'INENCE, noun

1. Superiority in excellence; distinction in something commendable; as pre-eminence in honor or virtue; pre-eminence in eloquence, in legal attainments or in medical skill.

The preeminence of christianity to any other religious scheme--

2. Precedence; priority of place; superiority in rank or dignity.

That in all things he might have the preeminence. Colossians 1:1.

Painful preeminence! yourself to view

Above life's weakness and its comforts too.

3. Superiority of power or influence.

Obviously, scripture wants us to know that Jesus is God in the flesh. Using the chart in my previous post, it is easy to see how "Jesus the man" is sometimes referred to in scripture, and sometimes "Jesus as God" is referred to, because he is BOTH.

That is why the name of Jesus is HIGHER than the name of Jehovah: "Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name"

Just look it up in Websters dictionary:

FIRST'-BORN, adjective

1. First brought forth; first in the order of nativity; eldest; as the first-born son.

2. Most excellent; most distinguished or exalted. Christ is called the first-born of every creature. Colossians 1:1.

Heretics love to take scripture out of context and change definitions of words, imagining they have some special insight and decerrnment others don't have.

@SlimBoyFat: Are you still rejecting the new covenant "for the forgiveness of sins" Jesus offered in Mt. 26: 27-28 ?

If so, then you have no basis for salvation what so ever. This is what is driving your rejection of the tri-partite nature of man, and by extension the deity of Christ.

Please explain your disobedience to Christ's command to accept his offer for forgiveness of sins. Because, it appears to me to be totally insane to be outside of the clutches of Watchtower and still display such open rebellion against the authority of Christ, while claiming belief in God.